tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8608925486225415836.post2961310147364420451..comments2023-10-26T13:22:20.653+01:00Comments on Shadows Veil Our Eyes...: A Kierkegaardian approach to the Tiller murder...Geoffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02458231323263823715noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8608925486225415836.post-10862043384826157452009-06-08T17:22:52.818+01:002009-06-08T17:22:52.818+01:00Sorry, Zoli, I don't go to MH... I could give ...Sorry, Zoli, I don't go to MH... I could give you my opinions, but I'm not sure they'd be what you're looking for. :-)<br /><br />GeoffGeoffhttp://gdargan.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8608925486225415836.post-41880509339941256222009-06-08T09:42:11.266+01:002009-06-08T09:42:11.266+01:00Hi, My name is Zoli, and If you go to Mars Hill ch...Hi, My name is Zoli, and If you go to Mars Hill church I would like to get to know more about it.<br /><br />I am a church planter in Budapest, Hungary and I'd like to know what are the things that drive young men to MH?<br />my email adress is zolienagy@gmail.com<br />ThanksAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05930226966575545351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8608925486225415836.post-10918200933797444902009-06-07T20:02:54.185+01:002009-06-07T20:02:54.185+01:00Geoff,
I agree with you, and I think intention an...Geoff,<br /><br />I agree with you, and I think intention and premeditation are certainly aspects of what makes murder, murder. And if this is so then I agree that most, if not all, abortions fit this classification; viz. murder.Bobby Growhttp://christianpaleo.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8608925486225415836.post-5649854989735668112009-06-07T19:54:04.877+01:002009-06-07T19:54:04.877+01:00Well, typically, to be considered murder - and I t...Well, typically, to be considered murder - and I think biblical mandates back this up - there is understood to be some sort of intentionality, "malice aforethought" as the law dictionaries say. This could mean that some abortions are not necessarily murder, which is why the "life of the mother" and similar clauses are so vital.<br /><br />If the situation is such that there is no malice aforethought, then the category of killing might change from murder to something else. I suppose this could be possible in at least some abortions, though I would argue that the majority, if we agree a human life with rights has indeed been taken, should be called murder.<br /><br />Abortion is a more complicated issue that either side's "mouthpieces" typically wants to admit. (Maybe they need some new mouthpieces?)Geoffhttp://gdargan.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8608925486225415836.post-13261541465558978532009-06-07T08:13:39.401+01:002009-06-07T08:13:39.401+01:00Yeah, I see what you're saying on the involunt...Yeah, I see what you're saying on the involuntary point --- per scripture. How would you define murder?<br /><br />And I agree with everything else that you said, that's what I was getting at with the "personhood" point; when I said: <em>. . . so the question and debate is over what constitutes "personhood."</em><br /><br />Anyway good one!<br /><br />P.S. I was accepted to Fuller (I'm originally from S. Cal); unfortunately the funds (lack) were prohibitive :-(.Bobby Growhttp://christianpaleo.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8608925486225415836.post-141660186524402302009-06-07T04:55:56.769+01:002009-06-07T04:55:56.769+01:00Hey Bobby, thanks for the comments... I'm not ...Hey Bobby, thanks for the comments... I'm not sure about the consensus on "biological life" - I suppose that might be the case, but I think most people on both sides of the issue would also add that the mere existence of biological life does not confer upon it any special rights or freedoms.<br /><br />If someone is pro-life, they must hold that there is some unique aspect to a human life that allows for the attachment of the "right to life", so to speak.<br /><br />As for the "involuntary" taking of life, no, I wouldn't call that murder. That doesn't excuse it, but I don't think it would be called murder, at least not as defined biblically (according to my interpretation!).Geoffhttp://gdargan.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8608925486225415836.post-46927041475620132412009-06-07T04:28:05.421+01:002009-06-07T04:28:05.421+01:00Geoff,
Good post!
If life exists, and "inno...Geoff,<br /><br />Good post!<br /><br />If life exists, and "innocent life" is <em>involuntarily</em> taken; wouldn't you say that is <em>murder</em> (I really don't know the "legal definition of murder")?<br /><br />As far as I know "levels of murder" (or "man-slaughter") are tied to the said "killer's" intent and premeditation. <br /><br />I was also under the impression that ALL parties (on either side of this debate) agree that <em>biological</em> life is present at conception (chromosomes and such); so the question and debate is over what constitutes "personhood" (Peter Singer seems to be the most consistent on this---on the <em>pro-choice</em> side). And sense Christians and non-Christians start at different places <em>axiologically</em> it seems that there will never be any kind of consensus here. <br /><br />I would certainly follow your #3, and would continue to advocate <em>non-violent</em> rallies, movements like <em>Crisis Pregnancy Centers</em> represent, and continuing to proclaim the <em>Gospel</em> which is the most <em>Pro-Life</em> thing any of us could do.<br /><br />Thanks for the post!<br /><br />Bobby (your local <em>racist</em>, argh . . . ;-).Bobby Growhttp://christianpaleo.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8608925486225415836.post-69081642969228804052009-06-05T16:44:27.939+01:002009-06-05T16:44:27.939+01:00Hey Roy, I totally agree... this is a really messy...Hey Roy, I totally agree... this is a really messy and dangerous approach. I'm NOT at all recommending that people just start acting out. In fact, given the consequences, I think this approach should actually make people MORE cautious. But, I also think it's more honest.<br /><br />Bek, to be fair, I think it's important to note that Dr. Tiller wasn't just casually performing late term abortions. They are only allowed in cases of rape, or if the mother's life is in danger. I'm not saying that makes it right, but I think we need to note that fact. Of course, if abortion is murder, then that's a moot point.<br /><br />That's one of the big problems with this issue: there is no agreement on how to decide what constitutes "murder" since there is no agreement on exactly when "human life" begins. Until that happens, the problem will not be resolved, IMO.<br /><br />Thanks for the comments!Geoffhttp://gdargan.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8608925486225415836.post-31092542006742560282009-06-05T16:06:33.394+01:002009-06-05T16:06:33.394+01:00Interesting post, Geoff. I definitely am a strong ...Interesting post, Geoff. I definitely am a strong pro-lifer... actually got into a discussion about it last night. <br /><br />I think the Bible clearly states that life begins at conception. So while I don't believe murder is the key to fixing the issue of abortion, I do believe Tiller was a serial murderer and should have been arrested and tried. (still not sure what I believe about the death penalty). He boasted of killing 60,000 innocent lives, and that, to me, means he should face judgment. Maybe that justice was being murdered. I'm not sure.<br /><br />Anyway. Interesting blog, and I agree more has to be done. I wonder how many people who still be pro-choice if they witnessed what happens in a late-term abortion. I'm willing to bet most people would agree it's wrong and he was a murderer.Rebekahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8608925486225415836.post-8663502471746568002009-06-05T08:11:42.322+01:002009-06-05T08:11:42.322+01:00"If you really believe that God is asking do ..."If you really believe that God is asking do to this thing to stave off genocide, don't shrink back. Do what you must. But - and this is important! - don't try to get away with it, either!"<br /><br />This is really, really messy waters to wade out in. First of all, there are people who would be quite willing to do many atrocious things that they think God is telling them to do AND stand by them. This is precisely the reason that agnostics such as myself come to this crossroad of belief and can not ethically go any further. Many people have come and gone claiming to hear from and do the will of God. Some of those acts have been graceful, loving and edifying while others have been hateful, degrading and even murderous. Your example employs a form of relativism (it seems to me) that many of us simply can't accept. However imperfectly, we have to draw lines of acceptable behavior based on ethics, morals and logic. God is none of these. God simply is whatever you believe it to be. There is no standard. The Christian, Jew and Muslim might say the standard lies in scripture but what a mess we are left with there!RChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966504220134346606noreply@blogger.com